Bury

Discuss all matters related to Dagenham and Redbridge
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Dagger Steve
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Bury

Post by Dagger Steve » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:31 am

Shameful from the Premiership clubs not to throw some of their spare change together.

Puts it all into perspective, eh? Especially those oh so important questions on how often the manager smiles and the quality of a carvery.

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ARNU
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Re: Bury

Post by ARNU » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:11 am

It does rather bring things into perspective.

More for the sake of discussion than anything.

I’ve pi55ed all my money up the wall can you lot give me some of your money so I can waste that as well? ( didn’t even say please)

I say good !

If any of us don’t pay our debts we’re farked, why should it be any different for football clubs ?
Be alert, the world needs more lerts!

DaggerJoel11
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Re: Bury

Post by DaggerJoel11 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:13 am

It almost seemed fitting, Bolton and Bury were due to play eachother live on Sky Sports on the 8th September.

It's no Premier League's responsibility to bail any team out, once again it's the supporters that suffer. Steve Dale, a self-proclaimed non-football fan who said he could 'very easily' walk away from Bury, doesn't lose anything.
''Dagenham & Redbridge look a very different side to about ten or fifteen minutes ago when they were on the back foot, and here's Benson...BRILLIANT!''

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ARNU
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Re: Bury

Post by ARNU » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:37 am

Whats the population of Bury ?
What’s the average gate at Bury ?
Why should anyone bail them out ?
If it’s that easy why don’t these upset fans put a few grand each in and then when that runs out put another few grand in ?
It’s obviously not a viable business. And though nobody will like this.... neither are we !

( did you like this cast Mikethedagger???)
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Mark
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Re: Bury

Post by Mark » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:38 am

Didn't Manchester City already give them a free training ground?

I can't blame the prem clubs themselves but there is something rotten in the way football in this country is structured. FFP isn't worth the paper it's written on as clubs like City and Chelsea before them just buy the title with ludicrous sums thrown down the drain by rich owners. The TV money has blown out of control and not much of it trickles down. The top 6 would clearly like to keep all the money and screw everyone else, but they fail to realise that without the other clubs there is no league.

Meanwhile smaller clubs overreach trying to reach the money league, because the choice for them is normally spend within their means and go steadily backwards, or speculate a bit and shit or bust.

Fit and proper test is also clearly not worth the paper it's written on, it seems anyone can, through stupidity or even ruthlessness, run a club onto the rocks. It doesn't appear there's anything to stop directors paying themselves big salaries or charging high rates on "loans" they make to the club.

I would like to see a proper salary cap as a percentage of real turnover, rules against hoarding players, a more comprehensive fit and proper test, and more TV money solidarity payments to the lower leagues. The NFL and similar seem to have a better idea of how to keep it fair.

With Bury specifically, apparently they owed £7m to the former owner from total debts of £9m? How has this been allowed to happen, is it Dale's fault or were they already doomed due to this debt? I did notice that Dale's son in law recently bought that £7m debt for 70k although it doesn't seem that little investment is going to pay off for him now!

Edit: "At Bury itself, loans now up to £3.7m, secured on Gigg Lane, were taken from an outfit called Capital Bridging Finance Solutions, based in Crosby, with 40% commissions paid to still-unnamed third parties as introduction fees. The publicly filed documents state that Capital in turn mortgaged Bury’s ground to a company registered in Malta, whose own lenders for the deal were eight companies domiciled in the offshore tax haven of the British Virgin Islands."

Very shady indeed. Loans were taken out secured against the ground with huge fees. Presumably the ground will now be repossessed by this Maltese company and the money will flow to whoever secretly owns these BVI companies. Wonder who they are...

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Dagger Steve
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Re: Bury

Post by Dagger Steve » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:36 pm

ARNU wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:37 am
Whats the population of Bury ?
What’s the average gate at Bury ?
Why should anyone bail them out ?
If it’s that easy why don’t these upset fans put a few grand each in and then when that runs out put another few grand in ?
It’s obviously not a viable business. And though nobody will like this.... neither are we !

( did you like this cast Mikethedagger???)
190,000

4,000

For the good of the game I guess.

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Mike the Dagger
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Re: Bury

Post by Mike the Dagger » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:43 pm

Mark wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:38 am
I would like to see a proper salary cap as a percentage of real turnover, rules against hoarding players, a more comprehensive fit and proper test, and more TV money solidarity payments to the lower leagues. The NFL and similar seem to have a better idea of how to keep it fair.
The NFL is a closed shop of 32 franchises owned by 32 billionaires who run the game for their own profit (via an appointed "Commissioner"). With no promotion or relegation everyone can afford to work for the collective good and be pretty much guaranteed that in time the player draft, where the worst teams get the best players, means that if you wait long enough your turn at success will come along (unless you are the Cleveland Browns).

Football just doesn't work like that, its too global.

Meanwhile, average cast only ARNU. Must try harder!

With all these money issues, how come Bury were able to put together a team to gain automatic promotion last season, yet then so broke that they are out of business a matter of months later?

I feel for the fans though. Someone needs to get AFC Bury going.

Daggerman
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Re: Bury

Post by Daggerman » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:59 pm

This could so easily have been us last year, it could so easily be us again in another year or so because we do NOT live within our means and sooner or later with no promotion the Americans will up sticks and move on. As for premiere league clubs helping out... what flying fu[k do they give? Nothing because it won’t benefit them. Top six being greedy causing the premiership to become uncompetitive... do they care? No they will form the europa league that has been on the cards for the last decade.

Diggerthedog
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Re: Bury

Post by Diggerthedog » Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:56 pm

Daggerman wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:59 pm
This could so easily have been us last year, it could so easily be us again in another year or so because we do NOT live within our means and sooner or later with no promotion the Americans will up sticks and move on. As for premiere league clubs helping out... what flying fu[k do they give? Nothing because it won’t benefit them. Top six being greedy causing the premiership to become uncompetitive... do they care? No they will form the europa league that has been on the cards for the last decade.
Not sure that’s correct, before the new owners came in we had to provide assurance to the league last season and we did. Have no idea what is being spent on top of what we make but I understand money was put aside to avoid such a scenario as they paid ‘upfront’.

Start of last season was reality that if you live within your means at any level you have no real chance of success.

RampantDuke
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Re: Bury

Post by RampantDuke » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:46 pm

Interesting discussion on Talk Sport this morning with Brazil and Cascarino. Brazil playing the 'people's' card and saying that the Prem Clubs should let more money trickle down to the smaller clubs. It's a lovely idea but what would really happen? All of that money would flow back out immediately to the players and their agents so that the clubs wouldn't benefit in any way whatsoever and would still get into financial difficulties. Meanwhile, many of the same average players would just be getting more money from their journeyman careers - oh and the leaches (agents?) at that level would be richer.

Case in point - 94% (yes ninety four per cent) of revenues made at League One level went on players wages and agents fees last season. Supporters demand better players, players can see more money flowing through, whether through subsidies or higher transfers so demand more pay when it comes to contract renewals. It's a vicious cycle and when the owners are as shonky as Steve Dale and the fella before him then what chance have these clubs got?
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hockley dagger
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Re: Bury

Post by hockley dagger » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:59 am

Sussex and I saw one of the problems with Bury a few years ago. We arrived on the tram on our way to Gigg Lane. Man Utd were at home and the platform was absolutely full of people wearing Man Utd shirts waiting for the tram to go out to Manchester. There were around 3,000 at Gigg Lane. They had a special offer on - I paid £15 for a dad and a lad deal.

The same issue exists in London and around, especially now West Ham, Arsenal and Tottenham have all massively increased their stadium capacity in the last decade or so. There are quite a few people who were regulars at the Daggers who have disappeared since West Ham started playing in the Olympic stadium. One guy I know (my wife's cousin) was a Daggers regular and contributed to the programme quite a lot for many years. He got a season ticket at Stratford and did both for a year or two but now does a game at Victoria Road once or twice a season. I haven't seen him this year.

I suspect more clubs will go under. I guess it isn't really viable to run a full time team on the gates that many clubs generate without subsidy, either from TV deals or payments from higher leagues or "investors". I was told a very interesting story about the guy who invested in Leicester the other day. Apparently his company owns the right to run duty free shops in south east Asia but had no assets. Buying into Leicester gave him fixed assets, the stadium and the transfer value of the players. Interesting take on why you would own a football club and perhaps explains what the West Ham owners are up to?

NBDag
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Re: Bury

Post by NBDag » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:21 am

Would be nice if the premier league clubs did, but they have no obligation to and ultimately they don’t exist to bail us out when we go to the wall.

It’s a shame to see Bury go, and it needs to be a wake up call to the EFL about who they let run these clubs. Seems like their fit and proper test is nothing more than a phrase they throw around for appearances. Also needs to be a wake up call to everyone else in the game though. They reckon 75% of clubs in league 1 and 2 could potentially go under in the next 5 years. God knows what that is like at non-league level. We all need to make sure our clubs don’t make similar mistakes and keep pushing for as much transparency as possible, as unlikely as it is that it will ever be achieved.

Have no doubt that Bury will be back in the football league as a phoenix club within the next decade. Even talk today of someone trying to buy them immediately and get their expulsion overturned.

Alan
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Re: Bury

Post by Alan » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:16 am

In our league clubs are/have thrown money at players.

FGR made a loss of £2.1m in the year they were promoted. In the years before that their losses were 2.5m, 2.9m and 2.4m. Close to £10m in losses over 4 years to get out of this league.

Ebsfleet’s latest accounts show a loss of £2.6m, on top of losses in the last three years in the conf south of £1.9m, £2m and £1.6m.

I read an interview with Gary Neville the other day where he said they lost over £2m last year and expect to lose £3m this year.

This league is a hard to get out of because there are so many teams throwing money at it and when/if their benefactors withdraw those funds, there’s a hard fall.

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Re: Bury

Post by Mark » Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:33 am

Absolutely Alan. This type of thing needs to be properly stopped. How can Salford lose 3m in a season when they come under FFP? Well, the regulation lets you lose 5m a season! How they have the brass neck to even call it FFP is incredible.

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Mike the Dagger
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Re: Bury

Post by Mike the Dagger » Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:57 am

Football is a business, right up to when clubs run out of money then suddenly they aren't, they are "the beating heart of the town" or similar.

If they are a business, then if they can't pay their bills they should go bust same as the local corner shop. Which isn't to say that I'd be happy if our club was in this situation (again), but its not up to everyone else to stump up the cash and keep a club alive.

As regulators though the FA/Premier League/EFL need to do more to stop these situations arising.

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