Ched Evans and Oldham Athletic

[Mike the Dagger]

As Tom satates, Evans has already had an appeal rejected by the Court of Appeal in November 2012, the current legal process is a case review which is highly unlikely to change the verdict. The appeal verdict is here: https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-che ... dwyn-evans. Go have a read. The appeal summary gives the details of the case and how the court approached it pretty succinctly.

Evans admits going to the hotel and having sex with the woman involved having been summoned there by Clayton McDonald, who had texted him to say he "had a bird" after picking the girl up on the street, very drunk at well past 3am. The "bird" was somewhere between very drunk and willing and totally out of it and therefore unable to give consent to sex which is pretty much the decision the jury had to make. Evans actions that night are somewhere between these two extremes:

- he made his way late at night to a hotel (after 4am), blagged his way to getting the night porter to let him into the room (which he had booked and paid for in McDonald's name) and had his mates sloppy seconds with a drunken girl he had never met before who consented to sex and later changed her mind

to

- he made his way late at night to a hotel (after 4am), blagged his way to getting the night porter to let him into the room (which he had booked and paid for in McDonald's name) and had his mates sloppy seconds with a drunken girl he had never met before who was in no fit state to consent to sex

The jury of his peers decided that it was the second of the two and therefore found him guilty of rape, which was upheld on appeal.

Neither are very edifying or say much positive about Evans. Quite why the father-in-law is so supportive now is a mystery, if it was my daughter he had publically let down in any of the scenarios above I think I might well be kicking him the balls rather than paying for him to get back in to football out of my own pocket. Of course, the world of WAGS is a mysterious one where once you have your hooks into a potential footballer you don't let them loose for little things like them being caught shagging a granny or simiiar.

On a final point here, I am a qualified cricket umpire and part of being able to do that is that I have to be CRB checked every three years. Evans conviction means he could not do that, or coach youth football, be involved in the scouts/guides, teaching, medicine and a multitude of other things, including being a director of a football club apparently. Yet it seems it does not stop him from kicking an inflated plastic bag round a field while being paid vast sums to do so and potentially plastered over the walls of kids bedrooms in team photos etc.

No one is saying he can never work again here, just that some offences are career ending in any profession, and rape ought to be one of those in football.

[rechitski kinzhal]

Just for clarification, Tom, I was certainly not suggesting my point is more valid than yours. Just the point that (as Mike alludes to) the potential father-in-law was at the Court and seems convinced of a miscarriage of justice*.
This discussion will never end simply because the Court decision WAS wrong. On the basis that the girl was too drunk to give consent then the other player must be guilty as well because she would have been more drunk, rather than less drunk, when he had sex with her.
As you may have gathered my "opinion" is that this whole case seems to be based on well-intentioned nonsense. Surely the majority of men are now rapists, and the majority of women now rape victims, simply because we may have been intimate with our partners after a couple of port and lemons!!!!!!! Are we going to see a drink-intimacy limit similar to the drink-drive limit, because otherwise we will have Court decisions made on what a jury thinks, rather than based on any facts.
Are breathalysers to be made available at night clubs so we can be sure our potential lovers are capable of consent?
This country is still regarded as a free country, yet legal precedent has deemed that it is now an offence for anyone to have sexual contact with an intoxicated person, despite the fact that a lot of people like to be intimate after drinking. The aims are certainly laudable, the practicalities are complete nonsense .......... in my opinion.
* Notwithstanding that I do accept Mike's point about acceptance by some people of a players misdemeanours with a prostitute old enough to be his granny.

[Mike the Dagger]

This discussion will never end simply because the Court decision WAS wrong. On the basis that the girl was too drunk to give consent then the other player must be guilty as well because she would have been more drunk, rather than less drunk, when he had sex with her.

The jury was instructed to consider the two verdicts separately.

It was noted that the woman in question had been drinking vodka heavily shortly before leaving the bar sometime close to 3am. As I recall (its been a while since I drank a lot of spirits) it does take a while for that sort of drinking to hit the system, so it is not inconceivable that she was "ok" of sorts when she got in the cab with McDonald (lthough she was drunk enough to fall over in the pizza shop, leave her handbag there, and the hotel night porter stated in evidence that she was very drunk when she arrived at the hotel) but be totally out of it an hour or so later when Evans turned up.

it seems that the jury felt that the act of her going back to the hotel with McDonald was implicit consent, whatever the pros or cons of that might be. Evans however turned up some time later, after the text message, which may have been an invitation to join in by McDonald (the prosecution case) or may just have been McDonald letting his mate know he was going back to the hotel so he knew he was ok (MDonald''s case).

As you may have gathered my "opinion" is that this whole case seems to be based on well-intentioned nonsense. Surely the majority of men are now rapists, and the majority of women now rape victims, simply because we may have been intimate with our partners after a couple of port and lemons!!!!!!! Are we going to see a drink-intimacy limit similar to the drink-drive limit, because otherwise we will have Court decisions made on what a jury thinks, rather than based on any facts.
Are breathalysers to be made available at night clubs so we can be sure our potential lovers are capable of consent?

I actually make you totally correct in that men can be considered rapists on the flimsiest of evidence and the number of false accusations made after a drunken night out is a worry. For that reason, it is sensible for grown ups to take care what sort of state they get in, and what sort of state their potential partners are in, particularly if they have just met them, or in this case, just turned up at a hotel room at after 4am in the morning having never met the person before.

Evans at minimum acted incredibly stupidly (and highly imorally) in getting involved. At a maximum he actively took advantage of someone too drunk to object or do anything about it... i.e. he raped her.

This country is still regarded as a free country, yet legal precedent has deemed that it is now an offence for anyone to have sexual contact with an intoxicated person, despite the fact that a lot of people like to be intimate after drinking. The aims are certainly laudable, the practicalities are complete nonsense .......... in my opinion.

And what the jury decided on McDonald is that the girl involved had implicitly given consent to sex by accompanying him to his hotel late at night and very drunk, hence the not guilty verdict.

She did not accompany Evans to the hotel, she had never met the guy. He blagged his way into the room and then had sex with her, very different.

[Auntie Merge]

And what the jury decided on McDonald is that the girl involved had implicitly given consent to sex by accompanying him to his hotel late at night and very drunk, hence the not guilty verdict.

She did not accompany Evans to the hotel, she had never met the guy. He blagged his way into the room and then had sex with her, very different.

Mike the Dagger

And that to me is also the flimsiest of evidence. Say for instance that the other player had a conversation with the girl about "being up for doubles" and in her inebriated state she said yes, thus the texts to Ched, and why Ched turned up. What makes that rape?

To make it clear, I have never liaised with players in this way but way back when I was asked A LOT. I'd always be told what hotel the players were at when they stayed away 'in case I changed my mind'.

What I find the most disturbing about the case is that the girl didn't report rape to the police - she apparently reported the loss/theft of her handbag.

[TomMc]

Say for instance that the other player had a conversation with the girl about "being up for doubles" and in her inebriated state she said yes, thus the texts to Ched, and why Ched turned up.

Has that been suggested to be the case (for example, by McDonald?), or is it just conjecture?

[ARNU]

Regardless of that, he was found guilty, served his time and has been released back in to society. Are you now suggesting he should never work again plying his trade, which, if you are, he would then go on the dole or welfare and continue to be a burden to society. And I do not for one minute buy in to the argument he is, or could ever be seen as, a role model to some kids because he's kicking a football.

If you are suggesting he should NEVER play football again because of what he did, then perhaps you should start writing as much venomous comments against someone like, say Tony Blair, who continues to make millions of pounds giving speeches around the world and at the same time has been hired as some kind of a Middle Eastern "peace maker". Where were those dastardly weapons of mass destruction anyway, and how many lives were lost as a result of looking for them. And while I see the point about the 6 year old being abused and people not wanting to work with the perpetrator, in this case, the victim was not an innocent 6 year old.

The victim was a human being who hadn't given permission for him to sling a mix up her.Or is that ok then if someone just jumps on without consent.She didn't consent.Whats the problem here ?? So its ok to just jump on any ol bird lying pissed in the gutter in Romford on Saturday night.Are any of you really struggling with this,hes a ****** rapist.
As for the role model bit...you know what I mean here surely? He will be paraded around on tv,in magazines,on posters on little girls and boys bedroom walls,having his photo taken with kids,taken on hospital visits and doing local community work and whether you like it or not is in a position of role model.He loses ghis right to that position if he gets found guilty of rape.If hes cleared that's the only game changer for me.He was sentenced to 5 years surely he should have been banned at least until the 5 yrs was up.

So I assume all you evans supporters would let Rolf harris back on telly when they release him ?? Or is that different ?? (And you know it aint by the way)

As for your rant about Blair....hes a ***** I agree.

[ARNU]

Regardless of that, he was found guilty, served his time and has been released back in to society.

He hasn't served his time, he's out on licence (ie any indiscretion then he goes back to prison for the rest of his sentence, currently two years.

He's a convicted sex offender, who doesn't think he's done anything wrong and whose father in law is paying for a website that tries to discredit the victim.

His conviction would stop him being a director at a football league club, why should he be allowed to still take part as a player?

Spot on.

[davei]

To be clear to both child like Tom and Arnu, all I am debating here is whether he has the right to continue in his trade or chosen profession. Tom, the issue of being a director (as patronizing as you want it to be) is not relevant. He's not applying to be a director, I am sure he knows he can't be a director so most likely won't apply to be a director, but he's not prevented from kicking a football.

However, with regard to being found guilty of a crime, he was. But with respect to his appeal, let me assure both of you, until you have sat in a courtroom on a jury and listen to the evidence that is presented, not what is reported in a couple of columns of a newspaper or a 1 minute blurb on the TV, you have no idea of all the evidence that was given.

However, AFTER the trial, when a decision has been arrived at, you can become aware of additional "information", which, if it had been presented at trial, may well have given a different perspective in the decision making process for those on the jury. Of course, both of you recall OJ Simpson was found innocent by a jury of his peers in a criminal trial, and then found guilty in a civil action, go figure. Jury's make decisions on the evidence they hear, not ALL the evidence available to the various legal teams. Have either of you ever sat on a jury I wonder...?

And exactly who are these wonderful do-gooder's, so concerned with Mr. Evans ability to find gainful employment, so concerned for societies well being and "our" safety from harm, they feel the need to make death threats (as in taking a life) and rape threats against those looking to hire him. If Mr. Evans is so despicable, what does that make those people who want to take someone's life....?

[TomMc]

This was the patronising gubbins, not what you referred to.

And in case you are unaware of this, many people who come out of the slammer after serving time for a variety of offences, also apply for jobs back in their selected trade or, in some cases, outside their trade.

[ARNU]

To be clear to both child like Tom and Arnu, all I am debating here is whether he has the right to continue in his trade or chosen profession. Tom, the issue of being a director (as patronizing as you want it to be) is not relevant. He's not applying to be a director, I am sure he knows he can't be a director so most likely won't apply to be a director, but he's not prevented from kicking a football.

However, with regard to being found guilty of a crime, he was. But with respect to his appeal, let me assure both of you, until you have sat in a courtroom on a jury and listen to the evidence that is presented, not what is reported in a couple of columns of a newspaper or a 1 minute blurb on the TV, you have no idea of all the evidence that was given.

However, AFTER the trial, when a decision has been arrived at, you can become aware of additional "information", which, if it had been presented at trial, may well have given a different perspective in the decision making process for those on the jury. Of course, both of you recall OJ Simpson was found innocent by a jury of his peers in a criminal trial, and then found guilty in a civil action, go figure. Jury's make decisions on the evidence they hear, not ALL the evidence available to the various legal teams. Have either of you ever sat on a jury I wonder...?

And exactly who are these wonderful do-gooder's, so concerned with Mr. Evans ability to find gainful employment, so concerned for societies well being and "our" safety from harm, they feel the need to make death threats (as in taking a life) and rape threats against those looking to hire him. If Mr. Evans is so despicable, what does that make those people who want to take someone's life....?

Been on Jury service twice and convicted a rapist,aquitted another guy accused of but clearly not a rapist and convicted a murderer.I know how it works.All the evidence in my 3 cases was meticulous and left no room for any doubt.2 cases went 12-0 in favour of guilty the other 12-0 in favour of not guilty.I genuinely feel sorry for anyone falsely accused,must be horrible.Also,whilst I don't care for rapists,drunk drivers and most murderers I have never once condoned or encouraged anyone to make vile threats to his sympathisers(I don't actually believe this has even happened by the way).Easiest(And silliest) thing in the world to do is make threats online,rarely do twats on the internet carry them out(You'd have to be a twat to make a documented threat on line then go carry it out wouldn't you ?)

[Paul from Barking]

Adding my 10 pence worth:

I personally think that Evans is a grade A creep about whom I would be mortified were either of my sisters to draw up with him.

At best he is a slimeball who treated his then existing GF with contempt and a total lack of respect Even if there were absolutely no doubt whatsoever about the consent (or lack of it) issue.

But WAS it rape?

Absolutely, if he turned up there and she never at any point knew there'll be another bloke along later - and we'll have a 3-some AND then IF she was effectively asleep through alcohol THEN, he is guilty.

However, did she consent to a 3-some with the other bloke who sent the text "I have a bird"? I only know what I know from the press and what I have read, and seeing as I am only absolutely certain he is a real grade A shitbag but not about the consent to the mate earlier then borderlione, borderline, borderline NOT GUILTY by the skin on a gnat's bollocks - the benefit of the doubt.

Evans certainly is a poor specimen, but calling him a rapist for being a stuck up pompous, selfish, indolent, indulgent cretin at the end of the day isn't right. And although he is a grade A scumbag, I consider we collectively have a responsibility to do what's right even though he truly is an odious bucket of effluent.

As for the "victim".... No, ladies - I am NOT saying that have a drink and you can be anybody's (and that they will be beyond punishment) but you have to take some responsibility for yourself and not drink to the point where something like this happens; guilty or not do you want to wake up having been shegged by some scumball like this and then have 2nd thoughts over whether you actually did or not - OR WORSE, get found dead in a ditch?

IMV Evans has paid enough. I think that ugly mob rule about Evans' inclusion has spoken but cannot be allowed to win out here. He has the message and continuously hounding him everywhere is concerning. After all which of us has never done anything we regret or wish hadn't happened? I also - more importanly - think that most footballers do have the message about their sexual proclivities - though I wonder whether this has yet reached the premier league where there is an allegation in some parts about 27 year olds thinking 15 year olds are fair game - again where they have a wife / girlfriend already at home.

[rechitski kinzhal]

Any of the original posters care to re-think their attitudes given that this innocent man has lost his career, reputation and millions of pounds because of some ill-thought out police crusade?
Yes, he has been shown to be a bit of a sleaze ball - how many other professional footballers have been shown to be the same?
I only went on about this case because it was clear to me from what I read that this was "questionable" from the start, yet some parts of society seemed to want him to hang.
Now the poor fellow is too far down the line to resurrect a career. And let us also not forget the poor girl in this - yes, she also is a sleaze ball, but she never wanted any of it, and she never cried rape. The police have a lot to answer on this one ...... yet again.

[Mike the Dagger]

Any of the original posters care to re-think their attitudes given that this innocent man has lost his career, reputation and millions of pounds because of some ill-thought out police crusade?
Yes, he has been shown to be a bit of a sleaze ball - how many other professional footballers have been shown to be the same?
I only went on about this case because it was clear to me from what I read that this was "questionable" from the start, yet some parts of society seemed to want him to hang.
Now the poor fellow is too far down the line to resurrect a career. And let us also not forget the poor girl in this - yes, she also is a sleaze ball, but she never wanted any of it, and she never cried rape. The police have a lot to answer on this one ...... yet again.

So he's not a rapist, just a total scumbag. That's OK then.

Gone from being 0.1% over the line....

- he made his way late at night to a hotel (after 4am), blagged his way to getting the night porter to let him into the room (which he had booked and paid for in McDonald's name) and had his mates sloppy seconds with a drunken girl he had never met before who was in no fit state to consent to sex

to 0.1% under it...

- he made his way late at night to a hotel (after 4am), blagged his way to getting the night porter to let him into the room (which he had booked and paid for in McDonald's name) and had his mates sloppy seconds with a drunken girl he had never met before who consented to sex and later changed her mind

[Chigwellian]

did she even know there was another guy in her room (Ched Evans)