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Just to clarify, with the exception of France and UK, all members of the EU adopt a generally unilateral and pacifist stance towards defence, and most do not come near the NATO commitment of 2% GDP on defence. If we have to rely on the EU for our defence, heaven help us.
In intelligence and counter terrorism the UK punches above its weight and is part of the "five eyes group" (UK, US, Canada, Aus and NZ) which are the real bright sparks. Sorry, but EU is just a complete waste of space when it comes to defence as Brussels and Paris unfortunately illustrate.
The EU Referendum
So Paul, apologies for being late to this thread, but I feel a need to say a few words on the issue. Not that it matters to me in the sense I am across the Atlantic, but you seem to miss a few salient points. First off, if Obama says the UK should remain, get out fast. With 92,000,000 US citizens on welfare, some other form of social assistance, food stamps or out of work, he really should be ashamed to give any advice.
That said, currently, of the 27 countries in the EU, 14 or almost 52% of those countries have an unemployment rate approaching double digits and have had so for awhile. The economies of Spain, Greece, Portugal, Italy, Cyprus and Croatia are all in serious jeopardy and have been for the past 10 years. So, how have these countries benefited by being in the EU and what benefits have they provided to the UK.
Where will these people go to find work. And, as an add on, if these people are not working, that means there is little manufacturing, so what exactly are they going to sell us. And how exactly are they going to pay for any goods we sell to them.
When the UK farmers are being paid NOT to grow crops so a farmer in France can, that is a problem, how do you balance that off. Take a walk down history lane and see exactly what made Britain great, and why it is no longer that way. And, in 2015 the UK imported more than it exported, mostly on the deficit side, to other countries in the EU. So how does being in the EU help us from a fiscal standpoint. A notable exception was surprisingly the UK sold more to the yanks than they bought from us................
I won't get in to the immigration debate, suffice to say with the problems the French and Germans are having with undocumented immigrants, they have absolutely no right trying to dictate how the UK should handle immigration which is what will happen.
As for the comments on military actions, the current war is not being won on the battlefield, it is being lost by mass invasion...........
That said, currently, of the 27 countries in the EU, 14 or almost 52% of those countries have an unemployment rate approaching double digits and have had so for awhile. The economies of Spain, Greece, Portugal, Italy, Cyprus and Croatia are all in serious jeopardy and have been for the past 10 years. So, how have these countries benefited by being in the EU and what benefits have they provided to the UK.
Where will these people go to find work. And, as an add on, if these people are not working, that means there is little manufacturing, so what exactly are they going to sell us. And how exactly are they going to pay for any goods we sell to them.
When the UK farmers are being paid NOT to grow crops so a farmer in France can, that is a problem, how do you balance that off. Take a walk down history lane and see exactly what made Britain great, and why it is no longer that way. And, in 2015 the UK imported more than it exported, mostly on the deficit side, to other countries in the EU. So how does being in the EU help us from a fiscal standpoint. A notable exception was surprisingly the UK sold more to the yanks than they bought from us................
I won't get in to the immigration debate, suffice to say with the problems the French and Germans are having with undocumented immigrants, they have absolutely no right trying to dictate how the UK should handle immigration which is what will happen.
As for the comments on military actions, the current war is not being won on the battlefield, it is being lost by mass invasion...........
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Mike the Dagger
- Posts: 2307
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:09 am
- Contact:
Just read this. Seems to work for me...
FEEL FREE TO REPOST
SPREAD THE WORD
There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about June 23rd, and people want to know the facts. Here are some:
You are not voting to leave the EEA or WTO, meaning all of the UK's trade and benefit agreements will remain unchanged should we leave, until such a time that the UK decides to renegotiate them for any reason.
You are not voting to leave NATO, meaning our security agreements remain unchanged. Should we receive an act of hostility from a non-NATO member, then NATO countries are obliged to come to our assistance. This does not change.
You are not voting to leave the UN, G8 or G20, meaning Britain will have the same voice on the world stage as it does today.
You are not voting to leave Europe!! The UK will still, geographically, be part of Europe. Non political organisations aligned to Europe will still extend membership to the UK (I.e. sports governing bodies, and so on).
You are not voting to stop recognising Interpol, Europol and neither are you voting for SIS / MI6 to stop dealing with other intelligence services in the fight against terrorism and global, organised crime.
You are not voting against being able to travel to Europe, contrary to the belief of some fools recently on TV. The UK has always maintained stricter border and passport controls than many EU members. This will not change. You will still use a passport to go on holiday and you will still be allowed entry to countries in Europe. You may even get chance to skip queues by using the non--EU queues at the airport (the only point so far that is my opinion, and not necessarily a fact).
The UK economy will benefit to the tune of £billions in the first year after we leave.
Medical and science research will not simply stop. The UK pays into the EU to then get money back in the form of funding. The UK will now be in control of this money and can choose to fund whatever UK based medical, science, art or other research it chooses.
Farming will not lose money because of EU funding being cut. The UK negotiated a rebate of some monies that the UK pays to the EU, in order to subsidise UK farmers. Instead of asking for our money back, we can give it straight to farmers. No change there.
You are not voting against human rights. The EU Convention on, and European Court of Human Rights are not part of the EU. Until parliament passes a new bill of rights for the UK, these will still apply, as will precedents already passed down to UK courts from Brussels.
You are not voting to kick anyone out of the UK or block access to anyone. Neither are you voting to stop recruiting valuable European workers into things like the NHS. Like my other point about passports for travel, the UK is already outside of the Schengen zone and so migrant workers must enter the UK with a valid passport before and after June 23rd. That will not change. British borders maintain full control of who comes and goes. Should someone have the skills to apply to work in the NHS, then they will still be permitted travel and given an opportunity to apply for a job. Worst case, points based assessment, like the US, Canada and Australia use, will come into effect. The UK is likely to negotiate freedom of labour movement though, in exchange for freedom of goods movement.
You are not voting to move jobs nor production out of the UK! The EU actually helped fund the move of Ford Transit production from the UK to Turkey... Yes, the EU helped give UK jobs to people in Turkey by giving Ford a loan of £80m with very generous terms!
What you are voting for is UK sovereignty. You are voting to stay in or leave a political union of leaders and representatives that you British people did not elect. You are voting against a commission of unelected, elite men that nobody at all voted and yet they make decisions on our behalf. You are simply voting to bring sovereignty back to Westminster, and that is all. If you worry about that because you don't like the Conservative government, look at the reality. Their majority in parliament is very slim. They have been blocked on big decisions already. You are therefore not giving sovereignty to David Cameron, but to the UK House of elected representatives. Do not be fooled by the fear campaigns that are simply run by the wealthy, who need EU money to thrive! Think about the future, and your family's future.
FEEL FREE TO REPOST
SPREAD THE WORD
There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about June 23rd, and people want to know the facts. Here are some:
You are not voting to leave the EEA or WTO, meaning all of the UK's trade and benefit agreements will remain unchanged should we leave, until such a time that the UK decides to renegotiate them for any reason.
You are not voting to leave NATO, meaning our security agreements remain unchanged. Should we receive an act of hostility from a non-NATO member, then NATO countries are obliged to come to our assistance. This does not change.
You are not voting to leave the UN, G8 or G20, meaning Britain will have the same voice on the world stage as it does today.
You are not voting to leave Europe!! The UK will still, geographically, be part of Europe. Non political organisations aligned to Europe will still extend membership to the UK (I.e. sports governing bodies, and so on).
You are not voting to stop recognising Interpol, Europol and neither are you voting for SIS / MI6 to stop dealing with other intelligence services in the fight against terrorism and global, organised crime.
You are not voting against being able to travel to Europe, contrary to the belief of some fools recently on TV. The UK has always maintained stricter border and passport controls than many EU members. This will not change. You will still use a passport to go on holiday and you will still be allowed entry to countries in Europe. You may even get chance to skip queues by using the non--EU queues at the airport (the only point so far that is my opinion, and not necessarily a fact).
The UK economy will benefit to the tune of £billions in the first year after we leave.
Medical and science research will not simply stop. The UK pays into the EU to then get money back in the form of funding. The UK will now be in control of this money and can choose to fund whatever UK based medical, science, art or other research it chooses.
Farming will not lose money because of EU funding being cut. The UK negotiated a rebate of some monies that the UK pays to the EU, in order to subsidise UK farmers. Instead of asking for our money back, we can give it straight to farmers. No change there.
You are not voting against human rights. The EU Convention on, and European Court of Human Rights are not part of the EU. Until parliament passes a new bill of rights for the UK, these will still apply, as will precedents already passed down to UK courts from Brussels.
You are not voting to kick anyone out of the UK or block access to anyone. Neither are you voting to stop recruiting valuable European workers into things like the NHS. Like my other point about passports for travel, the UK is already outside of the Schengen zone and so migrant workers must enter the UK with a valid passport before and after June 23rd. That will not change. British borders maintain full control of who comes and goes. Should someone have the skills to apply to work in the NHS, then they will still be permitted travel and given an opportunity to apply for a job. Worst case, points based assessment, like the US, Canada and Australia use, will come into effect. The UK is likely to negotiate freedom of labour movement though, in exchange for freedom of goods movement.
You are not voting to move jobs nor production out of the UK! The EU actually helped fund the move of Ford Transit production from the UK to Turkey... Yes, the EU helped give UK jobs to people in Turkey by giving Ford a loan of £80m with very generous terms!
What you are voting for is UK sovereignty. You are voting to stay in or leave a political union of leaders and representatives that you British people did not elect. You are voting against a commission of unelected, elite men that nobody at all voted and yet they make decisions on our behalf. You are simply voting to bring sovereignty back to Westminster, and that is all. If you worry about that because you don't like the Conservative government, look at the reality. Their majority in parliament is very slim. They have been blocked on big decisions already. You are therefore not giving sovereignty to David Cameron, but to the UK House of elected representatives. Do not be fooled by the fear campaigns that are simply run by the wealthy, who need EU money to thrive! Think about the future, and your family's future.
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Paul from Barking
- Posts: 380
- Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:59 pm
I've thought about it and wavered somewhat but I still intend to vote to remain in because you can't change the rules of a club from outside. The only way to reform the EU (which has plenty of flaws) is from within it.
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Mike the Dagger
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Thats me convinced.... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36584685
Think it will be a very tight result over England, but as already well known London with all the mass immigration and 'middle class lefties' will definitely be an inner but think the remain campaign has been run disgracefully with all 'the threats' and hardships we will have if an outer is achieved, Christ man were the fifth strongest industrialized country, the world wants us. Will hate Cameron for ever with the famous line that he knew technically he could never achieve- to get the immigration figures down to the thousands, and will always remember three other factors for ages without a Nigel Farage to speak out for so many people who feel completely lost with a country that is unrecognizable from a country 20, 30 years back, those poor hard struggling fisherman going down the Thames the other day with those lovely remain luvvies sticking a finger up, so much for the main logic by them of respecting other peoples opinions and finally one million people coming here in every three years (at present) and that's only what they're telling us!
Paul, with respect to the UK timeline in the EU, it has taken 40 odd years to get to where we are today.
Like most of those who wish to stay, you are perhaps looking at things through rose tinted glasses. With unemployment as it is in Europe, the economies of perhaps as many as 80% of the countries in the EU on the verge of collapse, all are looking for the UK to bail them out. If so, exactly what please tell me does the UK get out of this deal. If this is what 40 years of being in this club is about, bailing out other countries, what has been gained
As for changing the rules from within, how do you justify that argument given the circumstances faced today (after 40 years)....?
Like most of those who wish to stay, you are perhaps looking at things through rose tinted glasses. With unemployment as it is in Europe, the economies of perhaps as many as 80% of the countries in the EU on the verge of collapse, all are looking for the UK to bail them out. If so, exactly what please tell me does the UK get out of this deal. If this is what 40 years of being in this club is about, bailing out other countries, what has been gained
As for changing the rules from within, how do you justify that argument given the circumstances faced today (after 40 years)....?
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Paul from Barking
- Posts: 380
- Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:59 pm
The majesty of democracy.
I congratulate the winning side in the referendum and will do my bit where I live and what I'm involved in to facilitate and make the decision the country has taken work.
It is a time to heal. This has been very devisive on both sides - but we're all British in the end.
I congratulate the winning side in the referendum and will do my bit where I live and what I'm involved in to facilitate and make the decision the country has taken work.
It is a time to heal. This has been very devisive on both sides - but we're all British in the end.
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rebeldagger
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Two pages of comments and not one on what has appeared to be the biggest (and first) major stumbling block, the Irish border.
I was dismayed with how little attention was paid to this during the run up to the referendum, for which we are paying the price.
I was dismayed with how little attention was paid to this during the run up to the referendum, for which we are paying the price.
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rebeldagger
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Well this is going well isn't it?
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Mike the Dagger
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Yep, factor caused by a divisive campaign to water it all down.
Should just have said "we're off" and forced them to negotiate with us instead of trying to pussyfoot round all the various issues, instead at every turn there has been whining, disunity and opposition to everything our side of the negotiation has said.
Had they offered proper concessions to Cameron when he went asking for them before the referendum, we wouldn't be here, yet we have pandered to them over and over again.
They manage open EU/non-EU borders in Switzerland, Norway etc. It's not impossible to do, if you are willing to do it.
Should just have said "we're off" and forced them to negotiate with us instead of trying to pussyfoot round all the various issues, instead at every turn there has been whining, disunity and opposition to everything our side of the negotiation has said.
Had they offered proper concessions to Cameron when he went asking for them before the referendum, we wouldn't be here, yet we have pandered to them over and over again.
They manage open EU/non-EU borders in Switzerland, Norway etc. It's not impossible to do, if you are willing to do it.
Well I'm just about done with this government's snail pace and worry 'what Brussels say we gotta do' on this Brexit issue. Maybe day's when Tories were hardliners long gone and will never return, not a Tory one minute but certainly neither Labour from what I see first hand how London Town's fallen to beyond repair and it cries me to shame. Brexit was a democratic vote about what the United Kingdom voted for and most people's concerns were about the free movement of people from other states and further and getting our sovereign state BACK and over two years down the line not a single zilch mentioned about enforcing stricter border controls and its still open gates. Its an utter joke! As it looks certain now, which most already knew anyway, a soft Brexit is in the making and agenda, and as that dear ole school English gent from Yorkshire spoke up for the many millions on question time 'when we voted we voted a leave and nothing else that was the question on our ballot paper and it didn't say anything else about a concession or a deal, shambles the lot of it.
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bloke down the pub
- Posts: 484
- Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:08 am
It's nothing to with race. We just want out.