Views from the Sieve

From the o.p, well that's double better than when I watched City play at Southampton on B/T or was it Sky? about noon in Manchester City center the day after our game at Bury. they just had Hart in goal. I was surrounded by Mancs and mentioned it more than once and like any fan of the elite tier today seems to just go with the flow as long as my boys are up there riding high attitude and that's what beats me, how our top two leagues have made our home grown boys and all the money spent on academies like at Chelsea and other top London clubs running into millions with no new Owen's & Beckham's is truly hard to understand . If I remember rightly I think Arsenal a few years back had a whole team with no English players from start up. I suppose its like moving in and around London and the SE now, were a evaporated nation.

I read that Brooklyn Beckham is being released by the Arsenal Academy. Think he'll rock up at the Daggers?

Find it quite funny people mentioning "the last couple of season" aka "Burnett's reign", also happened regularly under John Still but yeah :)

matt_drfc wrote:Find it quite funny people mentioning "the last couple of season" aka "Burnett's reign", also happened regularly under John Still but yeah :)

Except that it didn't happen regularly under Still. He used the loan market, but not at the expense of our own players. It was used to cover injuries and occassionally add something different to the squad.

Under Burnett we've had the following on loan:
Agyemang, Azeez, Carr, Chambers, D'Ath, Jakubiak, Miles, Norris, Obileye, Samuel, Shariff, Silva, Turgott, Widdowson - 13 in two years.

Two of those have been made permanent. Samuel might have been decent but got injured too quickly to tell. Norris was ok for a few games and Obileye has been an improvement on Saah.
Meanwhile, the likes of Azeez, Chambers, Shariff, Silva and Turgott have got game time while the likes of Shields and Goldberg couldn't. It's quite possible that Shields and Goldberg wouldn't have been brilliant, but I do not believe they'd have offered less than some of those.

Miles was brought in to play instead of Seabright. He clearly wasn't better than Seabright.

And of course the point is going to around Burnetts period in charge. There isn't much point in talking about stuff that happened two years a go. Might as well look at the youth development under Ted Hardy in that case.

Adrian wrote:

matt_drfc wrote:Find it quite funny people mentioning "the last couple of season" aka "Burnett's reign", also happened regularly under John Still but yeah :)

Except that it didn't happen regularly under Still. He used the loan market, but not at the expense of our own players. It was used to cover injuries and occassionally add something different to the squad.

Under Burnett we've had the following on loan:
Agyemang, Azeez, Carr, Chambers, D'Ath, Jakubiak, Miles, Norris, Obileye, Samuel, Shariff, Silva, Turgott, Widdowson - 13 in two years.

Two of those have been made permanent. Samuel might have been decent but got injured too quickly to tell. Norris was ok for a few games and Obileye has been an improvement on Saah.
Meanwhile, the likes of Azeez, Chambers, Shariff, Silva and Turgott have got game time while the likes of Shields and Goldberg couldn't. It's quite possible that Shields and Goldberg wouldn't have been brilliant, but I do not believe they'd have offered less than some of those.

Miles was brought in to play instead of Seabright. He clearly wasn't better than Seabright.

And of course the point is going to around Burnetts period in charge. There isn't much point in talking about stuff that happened two years a go. Might as well look at the youth development under Ted Hardy in that case.

Didn't happen regularly? Hmm, interesting. I've counted 24 in Still's last 2 and half years here.. Sure some people will remember these guys:

Kayleden Brown, Victor Palsson, Josh Wakefield, Jake Caprice, Troy Hewitt, Eoin Wearen, Charlie Wassmer, Ollie Lee, James Shea, Jonathan Bond, Cristian Montano, Cameron Lancaster, Eddie Oshodi, Nathaniel Pinney, Marvin Morgan, John Akinde, Ahmed Abdulla, Ben Reeves, Exodus Geohaghon, Josh Parker, Mathieu Baudry, Mickey Spillane, Solomon Taiwo, Simon Locke, Adam Cunnington.

How many were any decent? Baudry is the stand out of course and Spillane was probably better for us in the loan spell than when he was here permanently. Who else? Montano was half decent and I didn't mind Ollie Lee, Akinde was alright for a few games in League 1. The rest? Awful. They were brought in, and used instead of some young players we had at the time. Luke Wilkinson and Dwight Gayle were out on loan at the same time as some of these were here, Alex Osborn, Duran Reynolds, Andrew Burns, Jon-Jo Bates, Louis Dennis, Ian Gayle. Did any of these get a chance during that period instead of the loanees? No.

I loved/love John Still as much as anyone, but saying it's just Burnett who has brought in shite loanees instead of using young players is just ridiculous.

Don't usually like a long post like this, but come on.

You have just missed by accident but Solomon Taiwo was arguably the best player out of that lot. (In his first spell at least)

matt_drfc wrote:

Adrian wrote:

matt_drfc wrote:Find it quite funny people mentioning "the last couple of season" aka "Burnett's reign", also happened regularly under John Still but yeah :)

Except that it didn't happen regularly under Still. He used the loan market, but not at the expense of our own players. It was used to cover injuries and occassionally add something different to the squad.

Under Burnett we've had the following on loan:
Agyemang, Azeez, Carr, Chambers, D'Ath, Jakubiak, Miles, Norris, Obileye, Samuel, Shariff, Silva, Turgott, Widdowson - 13 in two years.

Two of those have been made permanent. Samuel might have been decent but got injured too quickly to tell. Norris was ok for a few games and Obileye has been an improvement on Saah.
Meanwhile, the likes of Azeez, Chambers, Shariff, Silva and Turgott have got game time while the likes of Shields and Goldberg couldn't. It's quite possible that Shields and Goldberg wouldn't have been brilliant, but I do not believe they'd have offered less than some of those.

Miles was brought in to play instead of Seabright. He clearly wasn't better than Seabright.

And of course the point is going to around Burnetts period in charge. There isn't much point in talking about stuff that happened two years a go. Might as well look at the youth development under Ted Hardy in that case.

Didn't happen regularly? Hmm, interesting. I've counted 24 in Still's last 2 and half years here.. Sure some people will remember these guys:

Kayleden Brown, Victor Palsson, Josh Wakefield, Jake Caprice, Troy Hewitt, Eoin Wearen, Charlie Wassmer, Ollie Lee, James Shea, Jonathan Bond, Cristian Montano, Cameron Lancaster, Eddie Oshodi, Nathaniel Pinney, Marvin Morgan, John Akinde, Ahmed Abdulla, Ben Reeves, Exodus Geohaghon, Josh Parker, Mathieu Baudry, Mickey Spillane, Solomon Taiwo, Simon Locke, Adam Cunnington.

How many were any decent? Baudry is the stand out of course and Spillane was probably better for us in the loan spell than when he was here permanently. Who else? Montano was half decent and I didn't mind Ollie Lee, Akinde was alright for a few games in League 1. The rest? Awful. They were brought in, and used instead of some young players we had at the time. Luke Wilkinson and Dwight Gayle were out on loan at the same time as some of these were here, Alex Osborn, Duran Reynolds, Andrew Burns, Jon-Jo Bates, Louis Dennis, Ian Gayle. Did any of these get a chance during that period instead of the loanees? No.

I loved/love John Still as much as anyone, but saying it's just Burnett who has brought in shite loanees instead of using young players is just ridiculous.

Don't usually like a long post like this, but come on.

So in order to make your point, you've:
1) used a longer period of time
2) included 3 players that never made an appearance
3) mentioned Dwight Gayle who was on a season long loan with no recall clause, so didn't miss out
4) included James Shea who was backup to Lewington when we had no other keeper
5) included Jonathon Bond who was signed to cover when Lewington was available and we had no other keeper

The young players of ours that you've mentioned missing out were largely young players that weren't really meant to be around the first team.
While currently the likes of Yussuf and Doidge miss out and they are supposed to be around the first team. But instead we have 3 loan strikers.

I'm also not aware that I said only Burnett has done anything wrong. Still made plenty of poor signings. But the good signings far outweighed them. In the case of Burnett there's not quite so much of a distinction.

Adrian wrote:

matt_drfc wrote:

Adrian wrote:Except that it didn't happen regularly under Still. He used the loan market, but not at the expense of our own players. It was used to cover injuries and occassionally add something different to the squad.

Under Burnett we've had the following on loan:
Agyemang, Azeez, Carr, Chambers, D'Ath, Jakubiak, Miles, Norris, Obileye, Samuel, Shariff, Silva, Turgott, Widdowson - 13 in two years.

Two of those have been made permanent. Samuel might have been decent but got injured too quickly to tell. Norris was ok for a few games and Obileye has been an improvement on Saah.
Meanwhile, the likes of Azeez, Chambers, Shariff, Silva and Turgott have got game time while the likes of Shields and Goldberg couldn't. It's quite possible that Shields and Goldberg wouldn't have been brilliant, but I do not believe they'd have offered less than some of those.

Miles was brought in to play instead of Seabright. He clearly wasn't better than Seabright.

And of course the point is going to around Burnetts period in charge. There isn't much point in talking about stuff that happened two years a go. Might as well look at the youth development under Ted Hardy in that case.

Didn't happen regularly? Hmm, interesting. I've counted 24 in Still's last 2 and half years here.. Sure some people will remember these guys:

Kayleden Brown, Victor Palsson, Josh Wakefield, Jake Caprice, Troy Hewitt, Eoin Wearen, Charlie Wassmer, Ollie Lee, James Shea, Jonathan Bond, Cristian Montano, Cameron Lancaster, Eddie Oshodi, Nathaniel Pinney, Marvin Morgan, John Akinde, Ahmed Abdulla, Ben Reeves, Exodus Geohaghon, Josh Parker, Mathieu Baudry, Mickey Spillane, Solomon Taiwo, Simon Locke, Adam Cunnington.

How many were any decent? Baudry is the stand out of course and Spillane was probably better for us in the loan spell than when he was here permanently. Who else? Montano was half decent and I didn't mind Ollie Lee, Akinde was alright for a few games in League 1. The rest? Awful. They were brought in, and used instead of some young players we had at the time. Luke Wilkinson and Dwight Gayle were out on loan at the same time as some of these were here, Alex Osborn, Duran Reynolds, Andrew Burns, Jon-Jo Bates, Louis Dennis, Ian Gayle. Did any of these get a chance during that period instead of the loanees? No.

I loved/love John Still as much as anyone, but saying it's just Burnett who has brought in shite loanees instead of using young players is just ridiculous.

Don't usually like a long post like this, but come on.

So in order to make your point, you've:
1) used a longer period of time
2) included 3 players that never made an appearance
3) mentioned Dwight Gayle who was on a season long loan with no recall clause, so didn't miss out
4) included James Shea who was backup to Lewington when we had no other keeper
5) included Jonathon Bond who was signed to cover when Lewington was available and we had no other keeper

The young players of ours that you've mentioned missing out were largely young players that weren't really meant to be around the first team.
While currently the likes of Yussuf and Doidge miss out and they are supposed to be around the first team. But instead we have 3 loan strikers.

I'm also not aware that I said only Burnett has done anything wrong. Still made plenty of poor signings. But the good signings far outweighed them. In the case of Burnett there's not quite so much of a distinction.

1) 'A longer period of time'. Bit more than half a season more. Fair enough.
2/4/5) Just naming all of them that were brought in.
3) Dwight Gayle was sent out in the first place though, so wasn't seen as good enough at the time by management, a similar case to Goldberg it seems. However, Gayle obviously progressed more.

Ok, let's minus the 3 that didn't make an appearance. 21 players between August 2010 - March 2013 for JS, compared to 13 players between March 2013 - March 2015 for WB.

You said "it didn't happen regularly under Still. He used the loan market, but not at the expense of our own players."

21 players. That seems pretty regular to me. Could it be simply that both managers have tried to use it in the same way? With the younger players on the fringes not quite good enough yet and needing loan spells away, whilst bringing in loan players to try and boost the squad?

You did pretty much say only Burnett has done wrong tbf.. Also, we're only talking about the loan signings aren't we. Not sure JS' loanees were any better than WB's loanees.

See this afternoon's prestige 'London final' has just six English born out of the 22 on the field, Cahill & JT on the blue side and four others on the lilywhites.